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Ramond
Dear players and wizard,
I found something really interesting. I'm from Holland and live nearby Belgium were they use really interesting rules (that absolutely favours the player) in Blackjack (a lot better then Holland where the house edge is +/- 0,6%).
Here they are:
* They use a 6-deck card game with cutting card.
* Blackjack pays 3:2
* Dealer gets only 1 card like everywhere else in Europe (no 'hole card').
* Player can double any 2 cards
* Player can double after splitting
* Player can split to 3 hands
* Player can re-split aces to 3 hands
* Player can hit splitted aces.. but, the aces will always count as 11 (so the aces will become a hard hand).
* Player loses his total bet against dealers blackjack (so for example: a player doubles €10,- to €20,- he loses €20).
and now it comes..!
* Player can surrender a hard 12,13,14,15,16 or 17, except when the dealer has an ace.
* If the player wins with 5 cards against the dealer (so this is no Charlie, you have to score higher than the dealer!) the pay-out is 3:2
* If the player wins with 6 cards against the dealer, the pay-out is 2:1
* If the player wins with 7 cards against the dealer, the pay-out is 5:1.
Wizard, I have two questions. First of all (affcourse) is.. can you calculate the house edge please, using the rules above (using the optimal/basic strategy).
My 2nd question, because the pay-outs if you win with 5 or more cards are higher, is where you have to use an alternative (basic)strategy. For example, if you have 13 with 4 cards against a dealers 2, you normally stand, but with the 3:2 pay-out I guess you will have to hit.. and for example also a hard 17 against a dealers 10 when you already have 6 cards.
And what to do with splitting 2-2 and 3-3 and doubling soft hands (which might become 5, 6 or 7 cards more easy).
Can you please calculate a new basic strategy?
I think this is very interesting for a lot of us who live and want to play in Europe because other countries like Holland, Germany or France use rules that always creates a house edge that is 0,5% or higher.
And besides that, in Holland they use a shuffle machine (they use 6 decks and shuffle after each round) so counting is worthless.
Like to here from you soon Wizard.
Thank you.
Greetz from Holland.
I found something really interesting. I'm from Holland and live nearby Belgium were they use really interesting rules (that absolutely favours the player) in Blackjack (a lot better then Holland where the house edge is +/- 0,6%).
Here they are:
* They use a 6-deck card game with cutting card.
* Blackjack pays 3:2
* Dealer gets only 1 card like everywhere else in Europe (no 'hole card').
* Player can double any 2 cards
* Player can double after splitting
* Player can split to 3 hands
* Player can re-split aces to 3 hands
* Player can hit splitted aces.. but, the aces will always count as 11 (so the aces will become a hard hand).
* Player loses his total bet against dealers blackjack (so for example: a player doubles €10,- to €20,- he loses €20).
and now it comes..!
* Player can surrender a hard 12,13,14,15,16 or 17, except when the dealer has an ace.
* If the player wins with 5 cards against the dealer (so this is no Charlie, you have to score higher than the dealer!) the pay-out is 3:2
* If the player wins with 6 cards against the dealer, the pay-out is 2:1
* If the player wins with 7 cards against the dealer, the pay-out is 5:1.
Wizard, I have two questions. First of all (affcourse) is.. can you calculate the house edge please, using the rules above (using the optimal/basic strategy).
My 2nd question, because the pay-outs if you win with 5 or more cards are higher, is where you have to use an alternative (basic)strategy. For example, if you have 13 with 4 cards against a dealers 2, you normally stand, but with the 3:2 pay-out I guess you will have to hit.. and for example also a hard 17 against a dealers 10 when you already have 6 cards.
And what to do with splitting 2-2 and 3-3 and doubling soft hands (which might become 5, 6 or 7 cards more easy).
Can you please calculate a new basic strategy?
I think this is very interesting for a lot of us who live and want to play in Europe because other countries like Holland, Germany or France use rules that always creates a house edge that is 0,5% or higher.
And besides that, in Holland they use a shuffle machine (they use 6 decks and shuffle after each round) so counting is worthless.
Like to here from you soon Wizard.
Thank you.
Greetz from Holland.
Wizard
Administrator
This sounds very similar to Spanish 21. Are you sure they didn't remove some of the 10-point cards from the deck?Administrator
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Ramond
No Wizard, the use a standard/normal card game. I asked a couple of croupiers.
There are also croupiers in Holland Casino that play in Belgium that confirm they use a normal card game.
Thats why I came to play in Belgium, because some croupiers in Holland told me it's interesting to play in the Belgium Casino's.
I forgot one thing (but thats pretty normal). The dealers stands on a soft 17.
For sure, if you don't believe they use a normal card game, you can e-mail the casino (Casino Middelkerke in Belgium) or play there yourself.
You can find it also in this Dutch page: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack#Bonusregels where they tell you about the Belgium bonusrules ('bonusregels').
I'm looking forword to your reply and answers.
There are also croupiers in Holland Casino that play in Belgium that confirm they use a normal card game.
Thats why I came to play in Belgium, because some croupiers in Holland told me it's interesting to play in the Belgium Casino's.
I forgot one thing (but thats pretty normal). The dealers stands on a soft 17.
For sure, if you don't believe they use a normal card game, you can e-mail the casino (Casino Middelkerke in Belgium) or play there yourself.
You can find it also in this Dutch page: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack#Bonusregels where they tell you about the Belgium bonusrules ('bonusregels').
I'm looking forword to your reply and answers.
Ramond
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Dear Wizard, you still haven't posted an answer.
I'm still very interesting (and I think a lot of players nearby Belgium are) in the house edge and alternative basic strategy with the rules they have in this Belgium Casino.
Maybe it is hard to believe that they use this rules (because they could even be a bit favourable for the player) but it is true, and they really do use a normal card game with 10-J-Q-K that counts as tens.
I asked some croupiers why they have these rules. The answer is simple: Off course double any 2 cards, and surrender (and all the other things the favours the player) is good for the player, but the most players use it in the wrong way. Most players don't know when tot surrender or when to double down, which in the end.. favours the casino with this rules.
I'm really looking forward for your answer Wizard.
I'm still very interesting (and I think a lot of players nearby Belgium are) in the house edge and alternative basic strategy with the rules they have in this Belgium Casino.
Maybe it is hard to believe that they use this rules (because they could even be a bit favourable for the player) but it is true, and they really do use a normal card game with 10-J-Q-K that counts as tens.
I asked some croupiers why they have these rules. The answer is simple: Off course double any 2 cards, and surrender (and all the other things the favours the player) is good for the player, but the most players use it in the wrong way. Most players don't know when tot surrender or when to double down, which in the end.. favours the casino with this rules.
I'm really looking forward for your answer Wizard.
FleaStiff
but the most players use it in the wrong way.
Player ignorance has generally favored the casino. So too does player inebriation. Do casinos there in either Holland or Belgium serve alcohol at the tables? Is it free?Ramond
In Holland sometimes you get free drinks indeed, except when the table is completely full.
And a lot of croupiers of 'Holland Casino' play in Belgium because of the good rules... but they don't get free drinks (not so strange I guess).
What about other people on this forum? Did anybody ever played in Belgium?
And a lot of croupiers of 'Holland Casino' play in Belgium because of the good rules... but they don't get free drinks (not so strange I guess).
What about other people on this forum? Did anybody ever played in Belgium?
Wizard
Administrator
I was hoping somebody else would answer this, but it is a worthy question, so here you go. The rules I have a hard time with are these:Administrator
5-card wins pay 3-2
6-card wins pay 2-1
7-card wins pay 5-1
Drawing to split aces allowed, but aces must count as 11.
Before factoring in those rules, and the early surrender, my house edge calculator says the house edge is 0.49%. The early surrender against a 10 is worth 0.24%, so that gets us down to 0.25%. Individually here is what I get for the winning Charlie rules:
5-card wins pay 3-2: 0.35%
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6-card wins pay 2-1: 0.09%7-card wins pay 5-1: 0.05%
However, taken in combination I get an effect of 0.43%. The reason it is less than the sum of the parts is an interaction effect. So that gets us to a player edge of 0.18%.
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Normally the benefit of drawing to split aces is 0.19%. I'm going to chop that in half, because in this case aces are forced to count as 11 after splitting aces, so 0.09% (my gut says to round down). So add another 0.09% for that, and we have a player edge of 0.27%.
I still can't shake the feeling that there is some rule you're not telling me that cuts the dealer's way. This game would not last more than a few days in Vegas.
Sorry, no strategy deviation charts. I spent at least an hour on this as it is.It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
FleaStiff
I still can't shake the feeling that there is some rule you're not telling me that cuts the dealer's way. This game would not last more than a few days in Vegas.
I too think there is something that has been missed, else the entire BlackJack world would be abuzz with comments about this situation.>Sorry, no strategy deviation charts. I spent at least an hour on this as it is.
Even those of us who will never get anywhere near Belgium appreciate your having devote your time and energy to this.
mkl654321
I still can't shake the feeling that there is some rule you're not telling me that cuts the dealer's way. This game would not last more than a few days in Vegas.
Sorry, no strategy deviation charts. I spent at least an hour on this as it is.
I doubt that this makes enough of a difference to bring the game back down to -EV territory, but the OP did say that this was no-hole-card with the player losing his entire bet on doubles (or, presumably, splits) if the dealer drew a blackjack after the players completed their hands.
I am also surprised that the 5-card win rule adds that much. After all, it's only an extra 0.5 bets, so the simultaneous occurence of the player getting five cards without busting AND winning the hand would have to occur something like once every 300 hands to produce that 0.35%--does it really happen that often (as you say, without strategy variations)?
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The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Wizard
Administrator
Administrator
I am also surprised that the 5-card win rule adds that much. After all, it's only an extra 0.5 bets, so the simultaneous occurence of the player getting five cards without busting AND winning the hand would have to occur something like once every 300 hands to produce that 0.35%--does it really happen that often (as you say, without strategy variations)?
0.35% to the player means an extra unit every 1/.0035=286 hands. However, you get an extra half unit at a time, so an extra half unit every 143 hands. Assuming 70 hands per hour, that would be about once every 2 hours you beat the dealer with a 5-card hand. That sounds reasonable to me. My figures, by the way, factored in strategy deviations. I'm just running to busy to put them in writing. If it weren't the gaming show week or I was the Wizard of Belgium I'd do it.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.